Impact Podcast | How is bold EV policy driving progress on the road?

Episode 9 transcript – Gal Raz – Evolving world of electric vehicles

KANINA BLANCHARD: Exclusive insights, actionable strategies and ideas that ignite change. You're listening to the Ivey Impact Podcast from Ivey Business School.

JULIAN BIRKINSHAW: Hello and welcome to Dialogue with the Dean, the inaugural series on the Ivey Impact Podcast. I'm Julian Birkinshaw, Dean of the Ivey Business School. On today's episode, we're plugging into the rapidly evolving world of electric vehicles. Once seen as a futuristic novelty, EVs are now at the center of national policy, consumer debate, and industrial strategy. But despite growing interest, Canada still faces big questions about infrastructure, affordability, and how to turn policy promises into real progress on the road. To help us navigate this electric moment, is Gal Raz, a professor of operations and sustainability and a fellow at the Lawrence National Centre for Policy and Management. Gal's work explores the intersection of innovation, supply chains and sustainable business, making him the perfect guide to unpack the challenges and opportunities of EV adoption. Gal, welcome to Dialogue with the Dean. It's wonderful to have you here.

GAL RAZ: Thank you, Julian. It's a pleasure.

JULIAN BIRKINSHAW: Great. So, just before we get into EVs and your own research, just briefly, how did you end up at Ivey? What's your background?

GAL RAZ: Yeah. So, it's kind of interesting. I'm a bit of a global citizen, if you will. I'm originally from Israel. I grew up, I did my undergrad there, and then I went to do my PhD in operations and a master's in public policy at Stanford University. And from there I went to Sydney, Australia. I spent about five years at the AGSM, Australia Graduate School of Management. And then I went to the University of Virginia Darden Business School, where I spent about eight years, and I think I really got captured by the case method. I'm a huge proponent of the case method, both the teaching but also the interaction between teaching and research. I've done a lot of cases that turned into research, and I really enjoyed that. And then I joined Ivey in 2015. I've been here for ten years teaching operations, sustainability, supply chain and spending a few years in the Dean's Office, also, until a couple of years ago.

JULIAN BIRKINSHAW: So, that's quite an impressive bit of globetrotting there. So, we'll talk about electric vehicles, EVs. Canada, of course, is committed to a bold zero emission mandate. By 2026, 20 per cent of passenger cars and light trucks sold must be zero emission vehicles, rising to 100 per cent by 2035. So, how is Canada doing on that set of targets?

GAL RAZ: So, I think the last year has been generally good if you're looking in the advance, but still not good enough, probably. But going in the right direction. We’ve got about 14, 15 per cent of EVs, almost. We still have a way to go in 2025 and getting into 2026. I think that overall, you've seen quite a big investment by the Canadian government, both federal and in the different provinces, in the supply side of EVs. So, you've seen, and we might talk a bit more in detail, the investment in Honda, Stellantis, Ford investing in Quebec, a lot of different kinds of companies. But at the same time, I think on the demand side, we're still having challenges. And I think what's been happening recently with the government reducing some rebates in different provinces, like in Quebec and in B.C., and also the federal rebate being taken down, that's not helpful. So, I think there's still a lot of roadblocks around the demand side that we can talk more about.

JULIAN BIRKINSHAW: So, roadblocks on the demand side, meaning people like you and me are simply not choosing to buy EVs. And I only moved to Canada six months ago, and I did not buy an EV, even though I had one in the UK before I left. I was a bit worried about the classic problem of range anxiety. I was a bit worried about would there be enough charging stations? Is that normal? Is that the biggest block at the moment?

GAL RAZ: I would say there's two biggest blocks: Still the prices of EVs, if you compare them to other cars or similar cars that are gasoline powered, as well as the range anxiety. Those are probably the biggest issues. And specifically, you touched on charging. I think charging is a really big issue. Both the public charging, but also the private charging. So, people charging at home and at offices, and this is still a big issue, right?

JULIAN BIRKINSHAW: And is the charging station rollout happening as per plan? Because obviously there's two models, one is in a public investment government push, another is you wait for private sector companies. How is that happening?

GAL RAZ: So, I would say definitely Canada is still lagging. When I'm looking at Canada compared to, for example, California already has above 20 per cent EV sales, and their charging stations were probably 30 to 40 per cent behind that number, relative to the number of EVs that we have. And the goal is to have many more EVs in Canada. So, currently there's two things. One is it's divided between, you have Quebec and BC which are already close to the 20 per cent, or even more. And then you have Ontario, which is much lower than 10 per cent. So different provinces have different strategies and are in different places. And then you have charging in different places. I would say we are lagging everywhere. And that's definitely a big issue. And it does go to the investment and the support of the government, not necessarily the government doing everything, but supporting private entities to do that.

JULIAN BIRKINSHAW: Good. So, let's dig into Norway, because I know you've written an entire paper with some colleagues on the Norway example. You say that they’re almost at 90 per cent of vehicles are now EVs. That is world leading. So, committing to it, doing it is one thing. Obviously, Norway has, a very, very rich sovereign wealth fund. So, they've got the resources, but nonetheless, they put in place some very specific policy incentives to make it happen. And what were those policy incentives?

GAL RAZ: One of the things that Norway has done really well is regardless of the government that was in charge, they continue with this policy that is supporting EV cars, right? Starting in the 90s when they started to have different policies around, for example, taxing gasoline cars, while at the same time giving tax rebates or taxing less, or even not at all, for EVs, as well as parking benefits, as well as no-toll roads. So that was a lot of work on incentives, basically incentivizing to make EVs much more attractive compared to ICE vehicles and make these gasoline vehicles less attractive. And then there is charging. So, around 2010 is when they started investing heavily in charging. And that includes two things: One is financial incentive, and the other one is the legal side. They really have done a lot. We didn't talk about it yet, but a big issue is the fact that in most condo buildings, most apartment buildings, you cannot charge your car. Some of them don't have the ability, in some of the old buildings it's very, very tough. But even in new buildings, the condo board might decide, “We don't want to do it.” In Norway, they said “We don't care. You're going to have to do it.” So, they basically passed a law that says you have to let people charge their cars, and that has a huge impact.

JULIAN BIRKINSHAW: That's pretty heavy top-down state intervention, which in this case, has been very helpful. And a mixture of carrots and sticks. Is that correct? Incentivizing the uptake of electric vehicles and obviously taxing.

GAL RAZ: Exactly. I mean, if you think about it, we always look at where there is this green consumer segment. And I remember doing research 10 or 15 years ago and talking about this green consumer segment, and I don't know that there was a lot of data on how many people we actually have there. I think, now it's growing, especially in the younger generation. But at the end of the day, most people buy cars for economic reasons. They look at cost. How much I'll have to pay at the gas station, how much the car itself is going to cost me. And even though today I think it's very clear, even in Canada, that long-term if you buy a car, for five, six, seven years, definitely an EV is going to be much more economical. The purchase price is still higher than ICE cars. And that's where people are looking at. In Norway, they made it completely the opposite. It was a very easy decision for consumers.

JULIAN BIRKENSHAW: Right, right. Good. And of course, the other country that has been very impressive here is China. And I was reading just before Christmas, that there was a month where the number of electric vehicles sold in China had surpassed the number of internal combustion engine vehicles for the first time. What's China been doing? Is this, again, a story of heavy top-down state intervention.

GAL RAZ: So, as you would estimate from China, it is, for sure. But it's actually a very different one. So, if you think about Norway, Norway has no cars manufactured in Norway. Norway also has a lot of oil that was able to support exporting oil in order to support this green revolution. China is a very different example, and I think we can actually learn a lot from what China did. So, China basically invested a lot, gave huge subsidies. They're basically talking about, I think, 230 billion dollars in subsidies for the last decade or so, in a sense, for different companies. BYD, for example, which is now the biggest manufacturer of EVs, got about 4 billion. There were car companies that got much more. So, the first side is investment, a lot of investment in those industries, not so different than what Canada is actually doing, which is why I'm saying Canada, on some level on the supply side, is learning well from China. The other side that China has done really well is this vertically integrated supply chain. So, it's not just about building the EVs. Obviously, the number one component of EVs is the batteries in China. I mean, look at BYD. They have a vertical control, not just of the EVs, but also of the batteries, unlike Tesla, for example, who's outsourcing the battery factory. And I think Canada has a potential to actually build the entire supply chain. And if you look at the Honda example, I think this is why Honda’s investment has been a really interesting investment. The investment is not just in building a manufacturing plant for EVs, it's also in building a plant for batteries, for that positive fuel power and the cathode, which is another component going into the battery. So, really looking at the entire supply chain, a holistic kind of approach, I think is really good.

JULIAN BIRKINSHAW: But there's something fascinating about China because you mentioned BYD, I think most people have now heard of BYD, but you've got companies like Geely and Li Auto and Jiamei, which used to make computers. They're now making cars. There's a half a dozen I haven't even mentioned, which I don't even know. My point is, this is a hugely competitive industry in China. And you're going to tell me the number, they now make some crazy number of vehicles, far more than pretty much the rest of the world together. And the risk is that they become so completely dominant through that internal competition within China that they actually become dramatically more efficient and effective than companies in the rest of the world. At the moment, I guess we've already got some very high tariffs protecting the rest of the world. But how does that play out? Because I'm seeing echoes of the 1970s when Japanese car manufacturers eventually kind of took over the world automobile industry. Is something like that going to happen here?

GAL RAZ: So, I think there is definitely the potential for that. If you look at the numbers, last year we had something like 17 million EVs sold globally, a 25 per cent increase from the year before, which is why I say I am optimistic when you're looking at where things are going. But 11 million of those were in China. And this is quite remarkable. I mean, you mentioned 40, 50 per cent, whatever number, it's quite clear that they're getting into a situation very close to Norway, in much less time than Norway. And with their own production. Right? So, all the production is happening within China. And the other side of it, you kind of said it, about taking over the world. Well, the problem is that there are not enough cars in China, not enough drivers in China to buy cars. And this capacity is much higher, which means they have to find other markets, which is why they're looking to sell cars in other places. And the cost is so much lower. And I would say the other side, and you talk about some of the other companies getting into it, which are more technology type companies, the technology is getting much better also. So, if you're looking at the technology, the car itself, the battery technology is becoming more efficient and the vehicle to grid technology, it's remarkable.

JULIAN BIRKENSHAW: So, if there were no tariffs and BYD was allowed to come to Canada or the U.S. and compete on equal terms, what sort of price would we have to pay for a BYD?

GAL RAZ: So, in many countries, if you look at the price of BYD car with no tax, it could be half the price of what you would pay other places, right. So they're able to compete with gasoline cars and be even cheaper than gasoline cars. I think I saw 12,000 dollars or something if you look at the U.S. car. And I think it's a challenge. But, if you look at the variety of cars, the price is dependent on the quality and what you're looking for. There is the issue of the range. For example, if you compare the range of the Tesla and overall, in the U.S. there is a preference for having cars that have high ranges. Range anxieties play a big role. In China, not as much. So, in China they have cars with different batteries that are more efficient but also have a lower range.

JULIAN BIRKINSHAW: Right. And I read that the charging time for the latest BYD car is dramatically reduced.

GAL RAZ: It is. So, there's both fast charging and when the battery doesn't go for as long of a range, it's going to charge faster.

MUSICAL BREAK

JULIAN BIRKINSHAW: So it is fascinating to see how this plays out. But I want to go back to your own specific research now and talk a little bit about policies. You've got an academic paper, Transition to Green Products: Emission-Based Versus Product-Based, where you talk about two different types of policy incentives. So just talk briefly about what those two types of incentives are and what your research shows about their relative efficacy.

GAL RAZ: Yeah. So, if you look overall at the categories, there is always a big discussion about who should you tax or who should you give incentives to, the manufacturers or the consumers. And by the way, sometimes it aligns with where are the biggest emissions, or where the biggest environmental impacts are happening. Manufacturing stage, or user stage? But that's been a big discussion and I've done some research on that one. But when you look at the type of taxes you can have, you can either have emission-based taxation, which again, could be either on the manufacturer or the consumer. And what that means is I'm looking at the overall emissions of the vehicle or in this case, of any product, from the beginning to end. Right, kind of cradle to grave. So I'm looking at the big picture: manufacturing stage, use stage, and end of life stage. And I'm saying, “You have to pay a tax based on those emissions.” Now, if you compare that to the other side, which is what we call product-based taxation, it's more of a carrots and sticks. It's basically saying, “I'm going to divide different products into categories, saying these are good ones, these are bad ones.” In our case, these are ICE vehicles and then EVs are in the middle. For example, if I have hybrids, which I might say, “You know what, hybrids are okay, I'm not going to tax them and I'm going to give you a rebate for them. They're actually quite efficient, they're quite good.” But what I'm doing is either giving a big tax on really bad polluting vehicles and giving a rebate for vehicles that are good ones. And what we find is that there is actually a different kind of result. So, depending on the emission level of the product and all the taxes, there are some benefits for emission-based versus product-based. However, if you look at rebates, they are usually almost always product-based. So, that's kind of the idea in Canada. We used to have a 5,000-dollar rebate: there was a list of which cars are part of it, which are EVs. The U.S. is the same. In Europe, many countries are the same. We decided that we picked those really good cars that we want people to buy and we give a rebate for them. Other countries like France, on really bad polluting vehicles they say, “If you're using those vehicles, you're such a bad impact on the environment we are going to charge you a tax.” So that's kind of the idea.

JULIAN BIRKINSHAW: So, is there a simple policy prescription? I realize it's complicated and it depends. But, if we can advise the Canadian government on what they need to do next, would you be pushing more on the emission or the product basis?

GAL RAZ: So, I think the big advantage of the emissions- based policy is the fact that these are very specific. So it's actually looking at the specific product that you're buying, that you're purchasing, and looking at the average emissions, for example, throughout the lifecycle of the product and saying, “We're going to charge you something on it.” Now, if you think about the product-based, if you have an EV, we're not charging you anything or we might even give you a rebate, but we're not doing anything. But the truth is, EVs also have emissions. There has been a lot of research originally that said depending on where the electricity is coming from, EVs could even be worse than ICE cars. I think today there is no question that EVs overall have lower emissions, but there still is some emissions. And the idea is that when you use emission-based taxation, even if you are driving EV, it's going to be taxed in a certain way because we are taking into account the batteries, the recycling of batteries at the end and so on. So that's advantage of emission-based. The problem with it, and this is one of the results that we show was quite interesting, if you’re too aggressive with taxes in emission-based policy, you could actually cause the opposite effect of what you want. So, what happens is you might cause some firms, who would have become greener, for example, Ford decided “I'm actually going to have EVs, not just ICE cars and hybrids, I'm actually going to have EVs,” and they might decide “It's too expensive for us, the taxes are so high we can’t sell those cars,” in a sense, “and there is a fixed cost to build EVs, so we're out of the market.” And that's going to be the risk in assessing this type of tax, which doesn't exist in the other type, the product-based taxation

JULIAN BIRKINSHAW: Let's turn now to actually the Canadian manufacturing business. And, of course, all this is in the context of challenges in terms of tariffs between the U.S. and Canada. But most people will know, Volkswagen's got this new battery plant, 14.4 billion, in St. Thomas, just down the road from us here. And Honda's got a 15 billion-dollar EV hub in Alliston, Ontario. I mean, these are impressive investments. And just give us a little bit of a sense of how they ended up in these two locations because these are hugely sought after investments. I can only assume significant government incentives were put in place to encourage these companies to put these investments.

GAL RAZ: Yeah, so I think the Canadian government, we talked at the beginning, have done a lot on the supply side. And Canada, I think if we step back for a second, Canada does have a big advantage when it comes to EV. When you look at the entire holistic approach and supply chain for EVs, we have a mining industry, very successful and specific minerals that you need in order to use for batteries especially. We have the knowledge, especially here in Ontario, but also in other places working with the Detroit auto industry for many, many years. So many suppliers as well as manufacturers, we have a lot of knowledge, a lot of human capital around that. And then if you think about the investment of the government in that area, it makes a lot of sense. And I think I mentioned at the beginning, what China did, which Canada, I think, followed with those investments, is really investing across the entire supply chain. So, it's not just about investing in the manufacturing of EVs, but it's actually thinking about the batteries, thinking about having a vertical control. So, Honda is a great example. We had the CEO of Honda in Canada in my class last year and it was great to hear from him about why they decided, from their perspective, they thought that there is a potential here in Canada because of this holistic supply chain. Of course, the money from the government helped, but I think that when people say, why do we need to invest? You know, why is the money going there instead of somewhere else? There is always a choice. You have to decide which industries you want to invest in. I think that there are definitely going to be a lot of jobs coming out of it. But more long term, I think it can build capabilities for Canada around EVs. And if you think about EVs and green transportation, it is a huge part of the economy, but it's also a huge part of the environmental impact. So, CO2 emissions. More than 20 per cent of CO2 emissions come from transportation. So, to me that was the right investment. And it's also an investment that can build the skills and the capabilities for Canada to become a global player in the global stage.

JULIAN BIRKINSHAW: So I mean, there's a fascinating little tangent here in the context of Trump tariffs because he's got this slightly crazy notion that we're going to have tariffs on everything. And yet we all know that the supply chain is integrated between Detroit and Ontario in a way that makes it impossible to really pull it apart. His objective is, of course, to get manufacturing plants moving from Canada into the U.S. I mean, is there any chance that this is actually going to happen? Is there any chance that the Volkswagens and the Hondas will say, you're right, we need to actually move these manufacturing facilities south of the border?

GAL RAZ: So, I actually think the auto industry in the U.S. is going to hurt quite a bit because of those tariffs. I mean, if you look at what happened, the result, the consequence in 2018 when Trump put the first tariffs on the auto industry during his first term, the auto industry lost a lot of money, billions of dollars in a sense, just from those kinds of tariffs. Because what happens is that, I mean, the supply chain is global. I think at the end of the day, you cannot not have suppliers all over the world. If you can create the local supply chain, that's a big benefit, but still there are going to be things you have to buy outside of your country. And Canada, I mean really the Canadian-U.S. border, I think we saw it when they tried to block the U.S. border during Covid and all those things. Right? It was such a lifeblood for Canada, but also for the U.S., it helps the U.S. economy tremendously. So saying now, “You're just around the corner but I prefer that you go and get it from somewhere else that might be thousands of miles from you,” from Detroit, instead of going to the other side, going to London, going to around here two hours away, you're going to get that you're supply chain from thousands of miles from the south of the U.S., for example. It doesn't make sense at all. So, to me the tariffs don't make sense in a lot of ways. I mean, there might be specific places where you might say, “Okay, I'm going to have those targets.” But the auto industry, I think, is going to suffer. For Canada specifically, I think it actually creates an opportunity, also. I look at the potential for Canada to create better relations with Europe, in a sense, around selling. You look at Honda, I don't know what the demand for EVs will be also, in the U.S. I mean, I think California, New York, some of the more liberal states are still going to have good incentives and people want to buy cars, but in other parts of the U.S., it's going to be much tougher, which means you're going to have to find other markets. And Europe, I think could be a great market for Canadian cars. And the connection is already there. And if the U.S. continues in that direction, I don't see it good for the U.S. overall.

MUSICAL BREAK

JULIAN BIRKINSHAW: We can't talk about EVs without talking about Tesla. Okay. So, I've been following Tesla's stock price with a certain level of schadenfreude. if you'll excuse my bad German. I think it's about, at the time of talking, 50 per cent down or so from its high earlier last year. What's your take on Tesla's long-term future? Because right now, as we know, BYD is making a more efficient car. Tesla's are still kind of cool in some ways, but of course, thanks to Elon Musk, they're also toxic in other ways. So, what's your take on Tesla's future? I mean, that's a pretty open-ended question, but I'd love your thoughts.

GAL RAZ: So I think it's a really interesting. I think I mentioned to you earlier, I'm doing some work with the students and a colleague in the US, it looks at the political impact in a sense of purchasing EVs. And I think overall, there is some really good data that shows that generally the more liberal leaning people are, they're going to buy EVs, but it actually has a very bad connotation for more conservative. So even if they see the benefit economically, they might say, “I'm not going to buy it because it's this green hoax” and so on because of all that political damage. And what's interesting is you have a person like Elon Musk, who's in the white House and doing all those things that are very conservative. You know, in addition to some things playing with right wing and so on. That is definitely making a lot of people say, “I don't ever want to buy this kind of car.” So, this is a self-imposed injury, of course. Which is also very tough to research because usually we want the research to be something more general. This is a very peculiar kind of situation. But if I look at the more general aspect, I mean, Tesla definitely went to a very different strategy. Right? So, you look at the Chinese kind of manufacturers. They said, “Like China, we need to be the lowest cost in everything.” The government invested in subsidies to create the economies of scale. And they started with very cheap cars, and now they're increasing the quality. So, you look at technology now becoming so much better in Chinese cars. Tesla did the opposite. They said, “We're going to start with a really luxurious car, build the economies of scale and batteries, and then we can go to the lower kind of fuel level.” I think right now we're seeing that Tesla is losing. I mean, the fact that BYD already passed them and this is just one manufacturer. Tesla used to be alone in the game. Now I think it's going to be very tough. And you can only imagine the Chinese manufacturers getting better and also other manufacturers. So, look at Honda producing here in Canada I believe will be very high-quality EVs, as well as other manufacturers. So, I think Tesla is definitely in a challenging place, but I think the leadership is just making it more tough. That's the fact that, even if he comes back, if he gets kicked out of the White House, like there are rumours of, and then who knows. But even in that case, it's going to be very interesting to see what will happen to Tesla. I think it's a very good car. It's very expensive. And when people have to choose, I don't think they ever got to the middle-class families, which is where a lot of those Chinese cars are getting. And that's going to be the people who are going to get us from the 20 per cent to the 80 per cent if you think of the Norway example.

JULIAN BIRKINSHAW: Yeah. I mean, for what it's worth, my take on Tesla is, of course, you can't take away the fact that they revolutionized the industry and that they will always go down in history for that. But you evaluate Tesla on its fundamentals now, it's a manufacturing company, it's not a tech company. And its share price is still about ten times higher than it should be if you actually evaluate it compared to the other Volkswagen or General Motors or Ford. So it is absolutely a puzzlement to me that it hasn't fallen even further. I'm not predicting they're going out of business. I just cannot believe how much of a bubble there still is around its share price. But look, we must wrap up. This has been a fascinating conversation. I've got two final questions. First of all, if there's one takeaway in terms of Canadian policy towards electric vehicles, what's your advice to either consumers or policymakers or both?

GAL RAZ: So, I think that we haven't actually talked as much on the infrastructure side. And to me, I mean, that really is the key now. So, when I look at what Canada needs to do, as we said on the supply side, I think Canada has already done quite a bit and I'm more optimistic on that dimension. On the infrastructure side, I think there are two things: One, is a public infrastructure. So basically people are not buying EVs, as we said. A lot of them because of the range anxiety, and that means public charging, which means more incentives for public charging and more money funding. But the other side, and I mentioned it about Norway, is actually passing laws and this doesn't cost money. It actually has to have the political will to say, “You know what? If you're in a condo building, you have to allow people the right to charge.” They had the low right to charge in Norway, how they call it. And that in a sense, I think is going to give. Because there is research showing that about 80 per cent of charging is actually happening at home or in the office. Really, there is not enough on the work side. People spend eight hours there. That's the other place where you can really charge your car easily and fully, and we don't have enough of that happening across Canada. And partly, it's really the government giving incentives and passing laws. So, to me, that's the two sides that I think really need to do better.

JULIAN BIRKINSHAW: And a final question briefly, what are you researching next? This is obviously your main area of interest. Just give us one new project.

GAL RAZ: Yeah. So as part of the grant that we got, I'm actually doing a lot of work with colleagues around EVs. So, I mentioned the political side. We're looking at secondhand fuel markets for EVs and policies, and should you give incentives to that. So that's one issue. But in addition, I'm actually looking at other aspects which relate to sustainability overall between social and environmental sustainability, and looking at the tradeoff between the two. For example, in the fashion industry, I'm looking at companies like Shein, also a Chinese company, and their impact on nature; what does it mean, and how can we give incentives. And some of what's happening now in regulation around the world that is affecting companies like Shein and other fashion companies, for example, producing in countries and having some really bad social policies.

JULIAN BIRKINSHAW: Wow. Thank you. Fascinating stuff.

GAL RAZ: Thank you so much.

JULIAN BIRKINSHAW: You've been listening to Dialogue with Dean from Ivey Business School. A big thank you to my guest, Gal Raz, for sharing his time and insights. And of course, thank you for tuning in. On our next episode, I'll be joined by Brandon Schaufele, associate professor of business, economics, and public policy and director of the Ivey Energy Policy and Management Centre. We’ll discuss how Canada is evolving its approach to energy production and consumption and the importance of establishing grounded and smart policy for the future. Until next time, goodbye.

KANINA BLANCHARD: This was Dialogue with the Dean, an Ivey Impact Podcast series. For more insights from Ivey, including thought leadership on critical issues and additional podcast episodes, visit iveyimpact.ca or subscribe on your preferred podcast platform. Thanks for tuning in.