An Indigenous systems thinking workshop that blended personal stories with hard truths encouraged HBA Sustainability Certificate students to think differently about the systems around them – and the role they might play in changing them.
The session was part of the Certificate’s coursework led by Lara Liboni, associate professor of strategy and sustainability and director of the HBA Sustainability Certificate, who regularly brings practitioners into the classroom to deepen students’ understanding of systemic challenges.
The workshop featured presentations from Pernell Jones (Kegadonse), Indigenous Bail Supervisor with the John Howard Society of London, CEO of Apex Solutions & Management, member of the Canadian Emergency Response Team Search and Rescue, CEMC, and previous Director of Infrastructure and Emergency Manager for Saugeen First Nation with Saugeen Fire and Emergency Services; and from Samantha Whiteye, Indigenous Leadership Director at Carolinian Canada and a community leader from Eelūnapéewi Lahkéewiit.
Jones’s work draws on deep community ties and bridges professional practice with cultural knowledge, showing how Indigenous leadership can guide sustainable pathways for communities and ecosystems.
Whiteye leads with a two-eyed seeing (bringing together Indigenous and Western worldviews) approach, integrating Indigenous knowledge and Western frameworks to advance conservation, reconciliation, and community well-being. Deeply connected to her Lunaapeew/Lenape culture, she is passionate about ancestral seed sovereignty and creating space for Indigenous voices in environmental leadership.
Both speakers emphasized that justice, environmental protection, economic development, and community well-being are deeply connected – and that systems built by people can also be redesigned by people.
How system design shapes outcomes in communities
Jones – who introduced himself by his spirit name (Black Buffalo) and clan – offered a clear look at how system design shapes outcomes in Indigenous communities.
“We now attempt to deliver wellness inside systems that were engineered for control, not care,” he said. “That is what we do every day in our systems. That is the reality that we are all facing.”
He explained that these systems often produce predictable outcomes, especially for people navigating the justice system. He pointed to release conditions that criminalize survival, such as prohibiting substance use for individuals living outdoors or in shelters.
“These breaches aren’t moral failures,” he said. “They’re system failures.”
Jones encouraged the students to consider the values embedded in the systems they may someday influence.
“Every system we live within was designed by someone. That means they can be redesigned,” he said. “If it was designed by a person, it can be changed by a person.”
He also spoke about how Indigenous governance models create stronger accountability and belonging.
“When you instill purpose and you instill place, you instill hope. Hope is how we thrive, and hope is how we move forward,” he said. “If the values are extraction (designed around taking rather than supporting), the results will be harm. If the values are healing, the results will be change.”
Creating ethical space for two ways of knowing
Whiteye spoke about responsibility to the land and to the communities that care for it.
“I want to acknowledge the human beings and the ones who take care of our Mother (Earth), and have done so since time immemorial,” she said.
She shared early experiences in conservation where she encountered racism, tokenization, and extraction of Indigenous knowledge.
“It was uncomfortable… being tokenized – the only Indigenous voice on a panel,” she said. “They only wanted my relationship or to have me around to gain access to the communities that I work with.”
At Carolinian Canada, she helped strengthen protections for Indigenous knowledge, including an Indigenous-only server and an Indigenous-led intellectual property clause to ensure knowledge – written, oral, or otherwise – cannot be used without permission.
Much of her talk focused on ethical space, which she described as the environment needed for Indigenous and Western knowledge systems to work together respectfully. Ethical space, she said, is necessary for two-eyed seeing, a practice that brings together the strengths of each knowledge system.
“If you take Indigenous knowledge on one hand and you take Western science on the other, when you bring these together, that is what we call two-eyed seeing,” she said. “But you cannot get to two-eyed seeing unless you create… the container of it, which is ethical space.”
Ethical space, she added, is an ongoing practice rather than a single moment of engagement.
Connecting the dots
For the students, the workshop helped link systems thinking to lived experience.
“This is very relevant to what we’re learning in class,” said HBA student Rachel Mawuenyegah. “Talking about systems change helps to actually change systems… hearing solutions, in addition to the problems, helps to frame how to make long-lasting change – not just repairs, but redesign of the systems.”
As a London, Ontario resident, she said the conversation also made sustainability feel closer to home.
“I find a very strong impact just talking about how to fix these different systems in my local community… This helps me to think about long-lasting change,” she said.
For HBA student Namara Morse, the discussion on seven generations – the idea that the impact of decisions should be considered over seven generations into the future – offered an important lens.
“I thought when Pernell Jones talked about the seven generations… that’s a really important grounding principle,” she said. “It applies not just to sustainability, but to having a future-looking respect and accountability underscoring everything you do.”
She said the workshop connected closely with how she thinks about the intersections of business, sustainability, and international relations.
“Recognizing forward-looking and sustainable awareness… has to underscore everything you do,” she said. “It’s not just a buzzword.”
A broader perspective on business education
The Indigenous systems thinking workshop is part of ongoing work to help the students explore sustainability through multiple lenses – ethical, cultural, ecological, and systemic. Hearing from leaders who work directly with communities gave students a clearer sense of how systems operate and what it takes to shift them.
Jones ended with a message about responsibility and possibility.
“Each one of you in this room is going to be a leader… You can use that hope. You can use that leadership to make a difference,” he said.
The students left with a clearer understanding of the kind of leaders they’re being prepared to become – not just participants in existing systems, but designers of better ones.
(Photo above) Samantha Whiteye speaking to the HBA students
About the HBA Sustainability Certificate
As global challenges grow increasingly complex, Ivey’s HBA Sustainability Certificate gives students opportunities to build their understanding of systems thinking and explore real-world sustainability issues from multiple perspectives. Under the direction of Associate Professor Lara Liboni, the program offers courses, hands-on learning experiences, and mentorship from alumni working across the field.
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