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[Auto-generated transcript. Edits may have been applied for clarity.]
Welcome to the Career Management Podcast, where we bring you stories and strategies from students,
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special guests and the career management team as we get set up in the studio.
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Make yourself comfortable and let's get started.
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Marco is a fourth year student doing a dual degree with Medical Sciences, and we start with his recruiting experience from last year.
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At this time of year, we know that HBS students who haven't landed summer internships yet might be maybe panicking and wondering,
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what do I do if I don't get a summer internship?
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And we hope that it might be helpful to hear from someone who's been in their shoes before, and just hear a little bit about how your journey went.
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Yeah. For sure. So I, um, kind of got into my HB one year.
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So really thinking about consulting initially, um, uh, kind of got very engaged in those like big,
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big MBB processes early on in the year didn't land anything.
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Um, kind of was just getting my feet wet for recruiting for the first time.
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Um, and so as a result of that, I think there was, uh, a lot to be learned throughout that process.
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But it was not the time that you were going to really, like, excel in an interview process just because,
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you know, like your your competition has probably had more reps than you.
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Um, so I kind of continued on interviewing throughout the whole year, um, towards second semester,
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started picking up in interviews a little bit more, um, with a variety of firms, but nothing actually stuck.
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And so I found myself kind of finishing my exams, um, in April, um, I went back home,
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started kind of increasing the amount of job boards I was looking at,
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like I was really only looking at the Ivy portal prior, sort of increasing it to like LinkedIn or like my workday or, you know, other job boards.
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Um, um, but ultimately, like my first,
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first big recommendation was like push late with the internship search because I think a lot of kids will get to the end of exams and say,
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like, hey, I don't have an internship. I should probably like, make my backup plan, and they don't give themselves a full shot.
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I would assign that job kind of end of May. So I think that's pretty late in the scheme of things.
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But I'd really recommend extend that window and look at the industries that, you know,
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other people are not looking at that you feel that are close enough to where you want to get to,
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that you can kind of continue to articulate your story towards, you know, where you aspire to be kind of full time.
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So if, if I'm hearing you correctly, Marco, the first part about the timeline, um, is that, you know,
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May wasn't too late for you to find and land a summer internship, but it's about not not waiting until that time point, so don't leave it late.
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But also, May isn't too late if you've been, you know, doing everything right and still not landing.
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Keep going, is what I'm hearing. Is that right? For sure. Yeah, I would say like you're definitely late to start in May.
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Uh, but if you have been working all year and you've got active applications out in May, like keep,
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keep pushing that till the end of May, because I would say there's lots of companies that are hiring for that kind of June entry.
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Um, past that, you kind of run out of luck. So I would say keep your targets open at that.
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And, and you're going to have to modify or modify what you're like, what where you want to be,
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because I think you are kind of picking out of a very confined pool towards that late in the summer.
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And so you're going to be looking mostly at the industries that are going to be just meeting people.
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Um, can you tell us a little bit about how you chose to broaden your search or what informed?
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I mean, I never fielded the kind of, um, like when I was looking up at internships, like, I just want the list of internships.
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I don't really want, um, ranked by function or, you know, I'll do that stuff myself.
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Um, and that's on 1220. Correct. Yeah. 1220.
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But then also LinkedIn, I would say to like, okay, just like looking up an intern,
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like just summer internship and then field location for kind of, you know, the cities you're looking at.
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But in terms of jobs, just look at all of them. Mhm.
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Um the, the jobs I would say like you'll, you'll see you can kind of see these trends on LinkedIn.
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Like I remember last summer I kept getting like oh jobs in renewables.
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And it was like a big category, new jobs every week.
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I was like, oh obviously there's there's some appetite in activity in renewables for for employment.
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Um, and so I think that was that was a really good place to search.
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But I think the other like key piece in identifying a good, good news reading, good kind of, um, understanding of what's going on globally.
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Like the other industry I would point students to today would be insurance. I think insurance is kind of like amidst a people crisis.
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And and it also aligns with kind of the function that a lot of kids really aspire to be in after business school, which is like capital allocating.
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Right. So like, I want to be at a hedge fund, I want to be somewhere where I'm investing.
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And I think your opportunity to do that at a much easier route than, you know, trying to recruit for those hedge funds is, is insurance.
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You can get in, get good mentorship, like lots of those companies are so actively looking for interns.
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And then for me, what I did, as well as kind of a backup strategy was I.
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Had worked, uh, the prior summer at a mortgage shop in Troy and worked and worked my butt off.
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Um, I believe you, like, uh, so I had I had quite a bit of, like, I would call it, like, social capital for her.
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Okay. And what do you. What do you mean by social capital? I mean, like, you know, people, people thought quite highly of me.
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Like, I went into that firm within two weeks.
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I was kind of like and, like, ready to take on a full time deal by myself.
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You know, I was probably a little bit slower than a full time analyst at that time, but I,
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I could do all the work without like, being, um, kind of like being overseeing the whole time, which is hugely valuable.
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And, um, I think they, you know, had a great summer there, had lots of, uh, really tight connections at the end of that summer.
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So I, you know, when I was kind of faced with that jobless state, it was reach out to those guys because at least those guys have,
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you know, as opposed to kind of cold outreach, those guys have an idea of what I'm willing to bring to the table.
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And, you know, they're going to be you know,
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I think their pitch to somebody to hire me is going to be a lot more compelling than the kind of one one off coffee chat that I had at some firm.
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So this wasn't necessarily a group or a connection that you had planned to have.
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But through your experiences built as you went without knowing that, hey, I might need to call on this later.
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It sounds like something that grew organically as a result of, you know, your work ethic and and how you showed up.
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Yeah, for sure, I would say, but I would say like, you know, you definitely want to reach out to profs,
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teachers, anybody that you know is you feel you've demonstrated kind of compelling work ethic in front of,
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I would say, get those people kind of to to vouch for you as well,
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because I think they open up a whole sphere of opportunities that are not even on the job board.
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Being proactive in your approach as well, like you say, reaching out for sure.
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Okay. And so I mean, to kind of continue where I was with that,
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I was I reach out to my boss and he had put me in contact with a small development firm, really cool company.
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Like they're doing cool stuff. They basically wanted me to come on as an intern and, um,
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be the the kid who knew everything about how mortgage shops like punch out development models for lending.
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So that's a big ask. Yeah. Big ask. Um, but simultaneously I had this opportunity.
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And so what I'd say about kind of like from the expansion point is, you know, I, I knew I didn't want to be in real estate.
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Um, I, I liked it, I loved the finance element of it.
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I just like real estate's kind of snoozy for me. Like, I'm. I like the kind of, like, high risk, you know, impact.
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Very entrepreneurial, innovative industries like, like more and in my field of study like biotech.
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But, um, and so, uh, ultimately I made that decision to kind of just like go into renewables,
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which I had like zero experience in, um, because I thought it was closer to that industry that I wanted to search for.
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Um, and I would say retrospectively, like, I, I for, for everybody's information, like I've just signed, uh, an investment bank just right in biotech.
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And so I totally think that that kind of like option to not continue in real estate
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and go somewhere else that's like a little bit more sciency was kind of really key.
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And making that next connection for, for where I'm now. So I definitely push you to expand.
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And like once you kind of collected those,
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those kind of final opportunities because I'm pretty certain if you are doing your outreach and and applying like those may opportunities,
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they will come because there's at that point there's just not that many candidates that are left.
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Two things I hear from that, Marco. The first is, uh, the need for congratulations on your offer.
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That's a wonderful opportunity. And the the second is what I got from your story.
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There is you had this idea of what your next stepping stone was going to be.
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And when that didn't follow through, you pivoted to a stepping stone that was maybe a little to the left or a little to the right.
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And then the next stepping stone was, was that original land for sure?
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Yeah, I would say, and I think that's possible in like, uh, just about everybody's experience, you know, wherever you're trying to be full time.
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Um, so I would definitely encourage you. I do encourage you look at those like small under allocated industries like that is a gold mine.
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Like you will find better opportunities. You'll learn more in those industries.
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And it's just easier to kind of, uh, continue on from those building block experiences as opposed to, um, I don't know,
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looking at at really competitive industries where you're not certain that you're going to get a job there every summer.
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So I do I, you know, I think candidates kind of always have to be balancing, you know,
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the like you should be feeling for the competitive ness of the processes that you're really aspiring in and, you know.
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What? What the opposite kind of feels like.
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Um, but I will say, like, you know, competition is is a challenging thing to deal with, I think, for a lot of students.
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Mhm.
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Um, and uh, I, I just think, um, you've really kind of to, to get out of those competitive pools, you've got to have that expansion kind of mentality.
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Okay. If you were to time travel back a year ago to when you were putting out applications and getting interviews,
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but it's not translating into landing a role.
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How did that feel for you? I would say frustrating and I think it's a challenging process.
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Like, I think initially my learning curve was like, how do I get the interview?
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And then it switched to like, how do I make it through like first round?
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And then it kind of like at the end it's like, why can't I break through that final, final round?
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Um, but in terms like, yeah, challenging process.
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Um, if I would, if I were to go back and do it again, um, I tailor my outreach a lot more like I think initially it was like,
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okay, I'm going to send a pretty generalist coffee chat email and have a pretty basic coffee chat.
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Now, my strategy is kind of, you know, like constantly thinking about how can I stand out in that process.
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So it's, you know, researching and kind of like profiling heads at the firm for a couple of weeks and figuring out like,
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okay, this person is, you know, like I was I was looking for,
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you know, who was in the private equity group because, like,
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I had a coffee chat kind of pitch that was ready for somebody in the private equity group.
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And so, yeah, had I, had I done it again early on, I would have told myself, Taylor, Taylor, you're outreach.
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And then. Later on.
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I don't know, I don't really have much, much feedback for kids that are making it to the very last stage of the process.
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It's challenging, like you got to fight to get information from the recruiter.
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You got to just stay in contact with those firms you want because you don't know when they're going to have another opportunity.
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But if you have a recent interview that's, you know, shows your talent there,
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they're more than likely to bring you on process less if you depends on the firm, obviously, but I think there's lots of opportunities there.
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So I just think, you know, if you're getting to that interview stage every time, like keep,
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there's not too much to change from the outreach approach, from the interview approach.
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It's challenging. It's subtle. It changes firm to firm.
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And I think it's it's about having, you know, establishing a good group of people at that firm that are pulling for you to work there.
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Like that's imperative. You got to have that. And then number two and three is, I think, a really deep dissection of what this role requires,
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like what are the key skills and how am I going to demonstrate that on this interview?
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Um, and, you know, I think some of my interviews have been failures in the sense because I've, you know,
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didn't make it past the process, but they've they've been very informative in teaching me about what that role expects.
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Like what, uh, you know, what is the expectation for a consultant.
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And so I think, you know, get to those processes.
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And then it's about my new tweaks. Once you're in that final kind of once you're consistently making it to the interview process.
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So at times being in the interview, it felt in the moment like the purpose was to land this job.
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And in hindsight, part of the purpose was also learning.
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Yeah for sure. Like it was like standard two back to back consulting cases.
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Um, and like, you know, I, I got feedback from both managers saying, like, your analysis was perfect.
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You're very quick. Like, you know, you crunched the numbers fantastically.
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You're you're qualitative quantitative side. That was all great.
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You didn't present like a consultant. And so it was like, okay.
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Like, you know I got get that that's part of this business model. And so that's where I say like, you know, maybe, maybe it's not for me.
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What do you think you, you wanted or needed to hear in those moments of frustration?
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You know, you're doing all that you can do and still not getting the results that you want.
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What do you think you needed to to hear or know in that moment?
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It's only a problem if you make it a problem. And so I think what like digesting that a little bit.
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So you you're in that process like I mean if you're feeling bad because you're not giving it everything you got, that's a simple fix.
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Like just you just go give that process everything you have. If you're in this situation where you feel like you're consistently, you know,
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giving it everything you have and it's not translating to results, that's, you know, that's the frustrating situation.
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But the other thing is like, I don't know if you if you have the expectations that you're going to get every single one of those final processes,
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it's just you're going to just lead to it's going to be devastating when you don't do it.
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Um, there's like if you can if you can be kind of mentally strong enough to say that, you know, you know,
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after every process that doesn't work, like maybe, you know, that's that's just kind of the way it is.
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Like, I just got to keep going, keep altering. Like that's when it happened.
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And so I what I would say is for, you know, for my offer this summer, I interviewed there and they rejected me immediately after.
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And it was only until, uh, this last week on like Wednesday, that I got an email at 5 p.m. saying like,
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hey, we might have a summer internship opportunity for you. I respond and learn their candidate renege.
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So the thing is, like, you could be really, really pissed off in that moment and like, hate the company and feel super frustrated.
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And you know, I'd never going to apply there again. Whatever.
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But, you know, you could on a stellar interview performance that might still get you the job there before your summer is over.
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So it's, you know, I would say, like it's not a problem until you make it a problem.
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And I was I was in that kind of, you know, looking for a job place for almost like two years.
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And so it's, it's really a factor of, you know, it's going to be your own.
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It's a struggle with your own mind. So I think you got to make sure you understand that.
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And you don't put too much weight on these, these internships because they're insignificant.
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I really think if you are the right person for that specific element,
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like you will make it there and it may not be the by the path that you anticipate out of grad, but you will.
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Absolutely. You know, you can absolutely get there. Um, what I take from that Marco too, is that, again, you did everything right.
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They wanted you for the job. It wasn't that you weren't a good fit for the job.
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It was that there was someone else who might have been, for whatever reason, the choice.
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And even though they said no, they came back around. It wasn't that you did anything wrong.
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Or that you weren't a good fit and they came back around and now you are in that role.
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I feel like sometimes students feel like if they didn't get a role, it means they've done something wrong.
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And I like your perspective of look at what you can tweak.
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Take it as a learning opportunity, as well as recognizing the strengths and the accomplishments that you do bring to the table.
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I recognize not everyone will end up in your situation where you get to know, and then two days later I get a yes.
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But that piece of of balancing, what can I control?
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What can I learn from while also not getting frustrated or feeling like a failure?
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Because again, you can be doing everything right and still not land.
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It's about learning what you can and keeping going.
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And I'm so glad you kept going. Yeah. For sure.
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And then the other thing I just add on there is like focus on the statistics, like some of those interview processes,
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if you do the math on how many applicants and just getting picked for the interview is a very rigorous task.
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So I mean, like, you know, celebrate those accomplishments too, even if they're not ultimately leading to the job there,
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you should still celebrate those because they mark, you know, significant improvement over what's been accomplished by you in the past.
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So I really think you got to kind of celebrate the there's going to be lots of wins and losses in that process.
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And, and you just got to be ready to roll with those punches.
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My last question for you, Marco, and my most important question for you, how are you celebrating your recent win?
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How am I celebrating? Um, talking about the importance of celebration.
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Yeah. So, I mean, I, uh, I am invited to the firm's, um, healthcare investor conference,
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which is hosted at, uh, the Toronto Metropolitan Center downtown on next week on the 16th at 17th.
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And how about in terms of friends and family, are you sharing the news yet?
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Yeah, yeah. Like I've told all my friends and my family, um, had like a nice, nice dinner out with,
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uh, my friends and then, you know, nice congrats from from all my family.
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But I would say probably celebrate with them when I get back to Toronto.
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Um, I think even sometimes just sharing the news, sharing the good news with someone else can be celebratory in its own right.
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And again, Marco, it sounds like there's lots to celebrate for yourself this summer and no doubt beyond.
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So congratulations. Thank you again for joining me here today and wishing you all the best for your months ahead.
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Awesome. Thank you so much for having me. Cheers.
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And after hearing Marco's success story, I called in my colleague Melissa Ganis to offer a career management perspective.
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Welcome, Melissa. Thank you. Kate. Thanks for having me. Melissa, what's your role with career management?
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So my current role is the associate director of HBA Career Management Programing.
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So what that really means is developing programing for our HBA audience here at Ivy.
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You've also just listened to Marco's recruitment story from his HBA one.
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What top tips did you hear from Marco? Oh my God, there were so many good things.
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Um, I think there's three things that came to mind as I was listening.
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The first really, don't give up and keep looking.
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Network, you know, looking at job boards, doing it all until the end of May, which is what Marco shared.
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But I would say even into June, many students think that internships start in May or June,
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and while many do certainly not all of them we actually see internships range from both eight to or all the way to 16 weeks,
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meaning they don't have to start until July sometimes.
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Um, and he also talked about expanding the job boards you're reviewing, so going beyond the Ivy job board and think I think that's important too.
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Western has a job board, LinkedIn indeed. And even industry specific job boards can be super helpful.
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Amazing. So, um, don't give up.
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Marco and I talked about April and May.
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But you're saying include June? Yeah, absolutely.
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The second thing I would say is broadening your search.
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So Marco talked about looking into industries,
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areas of business that might be booming right now and begin researching them or consider coffee chatting people within those organizations.
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There are also companies that naturally wait until a few months before the summer to do their hiring.
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So you may want to look both at Ivy, but also consider other job boards.
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And you certainly don't have to, um, you know, look, just at Ivy, as I mentioned, certainly look beyond to.
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The other thing that Marko talked about is that there's so many ways to get to your goal.
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He talked about how so many students think that there's this perfect internship.
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And, you know, that's what's going to help you get your role post-graduation, when in fact, there are so many avenues to get to that same goal.
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It certainly doesn't have to even be an internship. Your summer experience can be paid or unpaid.
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It can fill skill gaps for you. It can give you exposure to parts of a business.
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It can ultimately help you to prototype what you like and what you don't like in a job.
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And this summer really helps regardless of the type of experience you have, even if it means it's a little bit different than what you had envisioned.
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And that's okay. But know that whatever it is, it will help you to, um, achieve your goal in the long run.
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Maybe in a little bit of a different fashion. Very cool.
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So in addition to broadening their search, also knowing that there are many options for the next stepping stone Grove said earlier.
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Okay, amazing. If there's one thing that you wanted a student to take away your own top tip, if you will.
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What would it be? Recruiting is hard. Um, and there are so many moving pieces.
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And while it's certainly not easy, as Marco mentioned, I want to reiterate.
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Don't give up. Um, he one of the things he had talked about that I would often say is one of my top tips to is this expansion mentality.
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I totally agree with what you talked about. Keep looking. Expanding where and how you're looking for opportunities.
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Using coffee. Chatting as a way to learn. Not necessarily a means to an end to get a job.
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And at the end of the day, it's not too late. Um, please don't give up exploring who can help students as they're navigating all this on their own.
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Advisors. You certainly have your peers. You have so many people in the Ivy community.
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But I would say, don't forget that you have career advisors.
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We can be an accountability partner for you. We can help to just push you.
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We can help to, you know, take a look at your strategy, whether or not you want to pivot in your plan.
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Just somebody to talk, uh, talk to you about where you've been and where you want to go.
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So I would say reach out to an advisor. We're happy to help. Melissa, thank you so much for joining me today.
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It was a pleasure. Thank you for having me. Thank you for listening.
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If you are interested in connecting with career management,
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you can book a one on one appointment by visiting the 1220 appointments tab online or by visiting our space at room two,
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235 in the Ivy Building at Western University.
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Take good care.