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Authored by a team of five Ivey professors, “Michael McCain: Tweeting on the Maple Leaf Foods Account” is one of the shortest case in Ivey Publishing’s case collection, but also one of the most innovative. Uniquely written in the form of just seven tweets, this case addresses the potential repercussions within Maple Leaf Foods Inc. following CEO Michael McCain’s decision to tweet his personal political views from the company’s Twitter account – all from a cross-enterprise perspective.
In this episode, we’re joined by two of the case’s authors, Steve Foerster and Gerard Seijts to explore the genesis of the case, the innovative ways it can be taught, teaching from a cross-enterprise perspective, and disruption and innovation in the case writing process.
Gerard Seijts is a professor of organizational behaviour at Ivey Business School and the executive director of the Ian O. Ihnatowycz Institute for Leadership.
Steve Foerster is a finance professor at Ivey Business School.
For more information on the case, please visit How I teach it: Michael McCain: Tweeting on the Maple Leaf Foods Account.
Transcript
Hi, I'm Mat Quinn thanks for joining us for season three of decision point from IV publishing at the Ivy Business School over the next few weeks, we'll bring in expert guests to discuss the leading edge, innovative cases what it takes to write an award winning case haste writing as an terly career academic, insights from a Cobra partner and the emergence of environmental, social and governments and sustainability case collection. Today, we're joined by Ivy, ste, forester and Gerard Sites, author of Michael McCain tweeting on the Maple e crews, account uniquely written in the form of just seven tweets. This case addresses the potential repercussions with a maple foods ink following CEO, Michael Mc Cain's decision to tweet his personal political views from the company's twitter account all from a cross enterprise perspective. During this conversation, we explore the genesis of the case the innovative ways that can be taught teaching from a cross enterprise perspective and disruption and innovation in the case writing process enjoy. So, gentlemen, thank you very much for joining us today. I'm really excited to talk about Michael McCain tweeting on the maple leaf foods account case, because it's not only a very interesting situation, but the way that this case came to be and the way that it sits as a case is really new and innovative, and I think maybe the best way to illustrate that is if we actually do a reading of the case. So why don't? We start? There sounds great a D and Mat. This should only take about ninety seconds, which really highlights how how short the case is. So I will, I will read in tweet form the parts of Michael McCain of what he actually tweeted and then Gerard will read. The other parts sounds great. I Michael the King See of Maple Foods, and these are my personal reflections. I'm very angry and time isn't making me less angry. A M L, F colleague of mine lost his wife and family this week to a needless irresponsible series of events in Iran. McCain's sweet was the first of a four part tweet. He wrote on January Twelfth Two Thousand and twenty at an Iranian missile mistakenly shot down Ukrainian flight PS, seven five, two killing all one hundred and seventy six people on board, including fifty seven Canadians hours earlier, Iranian missiles had been fired on bases in Irak where Americans were stationed, the Iranian military was in high a word after. U Was President Donald Trump had recently ordered US military to take decisive defensive action to protect? U S: Personnel Abroad by killing Iranian General Cassam Soloman, head of Irans a lead, revensh Revolutionary Guard cuts force. US government leaders, unconstrained by checks, balances, concocted an ill conceived plan to divert focus from political woes. The world nose a ran as a dangerous state, but the world found a path to contain it, not perfect, but by most accounts it was the right direction. Michael mckean, mckain tweet raised lots of questions. How should I see Ho's personal views be separated from corporate views should he have used the and maple foods twitter handle to vent his anger and who the tweed damage the company's brand and destroy shareholder value? So, first of all well done you both have a great voice for this. This is great. I just there's so many places that we can start with this from the cross enterprise way to address this, but I really want to start with you Steve. Can you talk about how this case came to be? What did the process look like from? You know, learning about the tweets to really bringing it into the classroom, talk to walk us through that sure mat happy too. As you know, I've written over a hundred cases and I think, just subconsciously, I'm always on the lookout for great new case ideas, and so I was reading the the GLOB and mail. This one was in January of two thousand and twenty and came across the story about this. This tweet and also some reaction to to the tweet, which was, quite frankly, quite quite mixed pro and con in terms of what, like a Meccan, chose to do and- and I immediately identified this as an opportunity for a great discussion- forr a broad number of of areas that we can talk about more in our discussion today. So I thought this would be a great case and and and ruminated a little bit more in terms of of how how it could be written as many of my great ideas and perhaps others. It came to me in the shower that what what would make for a really innovative case would be to write the case in the form of tweets and so the next morning I sat down, and it was probably the quickest first draft of a case that I'd ever done. It probably took less than half an hour just to just just to get get like a McCain's tweets and to provide very briefly some context, as well as sort of setting the tone and and formulating some some questions for discussion, and I immediately then reached out to Gerard and we've known each other for for decades, and I wanted to bounce off of him as a prominent researcher in leadership to get his thoughts in terms of what did. He think that this was was was going to be a possible case that would be of interest and, and he responded very very positively and from there it was a matter of putting a team together and doing a lot of work that we can talk about in terms of the teaching note. So that's the background mat and it's great. If you know you know you got the inspiration, got the collaboration going, got it into the classroom and Gerard here's, where I want to go over to you as a Gerard. Can you talk about how you approach the delivery of the case? Because there are so many nuances that you can you can pull on to bring this into the classroom? What are some of the different ways that this case can be taught from your experience? Yeah thanks Mat for that question and I think in Steve's answers the were at least two words that actually influence how we approach, how we teach the case. There was cross enterprise and team. You know the way we taught the case. You know in the in the HB program. Our undergraduate program is in is a team based fashion across enterprise spirit. So what does that mean? The team was comprised to five people, strategy, finance, leadership, marketing and communications, and these functions were actually deliberately chosen because, when Steve- and I sat down to start thinking about the narrative- the teaching note- It was actually compelling story. So in thirty forty five seconds, let me tell you a story mat and hopefully they will clarify things for people that are listening to the podcast. We set a stage to context why we picked this case et ce quickly. Then strategy will take over and strategy will talk about the objective of strategy right, which is about devising a plan for creating value right and having the discipline to execute that particular plan. So it brings focus to the conversation and in the short discussion. We also talk a little bit about the business of Maple Foods. Their truant et Cetera now following that would be finance, and this is, of course, is all rehearsed. It's all stage, but finance actually pushes really hard on the fundamental purpose of the firm, which is to maximize shareholder value and to push hard by design the work of Milton Freeman. Soon there, after a leadership takes over wags, a finger towards finance accuses our finance colic that perhaps it's a little bit old fashioned, because in two thousand and nineteen there was the statement from the business round table who said that the purpose of a corporation really should be focused on five. Not just one stake holder, so she will share old, is still really important, but with customers, employees, suppliers, communities and so at. This is one of those points where we bring in the students we have some pulling and it goes hard against heart right because both the instructors in their roles like to encourage a debate amongst your students- and let me tell you, we get that- and it gets heated especially between the two instructors- all played right. But it brings some some some engagement. Some set some passion to kind of the case. Conversation then at some point, marketing steps in tries to ring down lower the temperature. A little bit and said: Okay, I hear what you're saying, but let's look at the actual data. Is there any damage to the brand so marketing takes over? Has a couple of good questions actually bring some tools to assess how one might assess brand damage and then eventually communication steps in and said: Okay appears to be some damage, as Steve said earlier, just prose and Quanz people who applauded Michael McCain and people who vilified him. Let's assume people want to hear more from Michael McKay or the maple foots organization. What would you actually say to rebuild the brand to engage in a conversation et ca, and so you know that again leads to a student assignment. Students will be asked to deliver a statement and at some point we slowly bring things to the close and even finance and leadership come together in a particular conclusion right and so that's our plan. But I would also say man to just to bring it to a close. It is easy for any one of US finance strategy, leadership of Marketing Communications to actually take that case and actually runs it independently right, because leadership can clearly talk about the business round table, I imagine communications can easily say we have a conflict. Now. What and I could easily see that in a class around finance, we can have debate the independency of leadership right kind of the shareholder, maximization Rasher, O the premices dee the business round table, and so there is many ways met by which this case can be incorporated in the classroom. I think you know when you're talking about you know finance leadership marketing all coming together. It gives such a rich experience for the student, because that's what yeah you know being a leader is and going in, and working and you're not working in a vacuum. There's all these different things that are coming into play there have there been either Steve drared any remarkable moments. You know you've talked about the passion coming through in the classroom and the in the debate. How was the student how the students reacted to this? Are they put off guard or they really drawn in anything remarkable happened during this process? Let me just share one other tool that that we use to set this this case up and then we'll talk about the reaction. We show some some news clips about the story of the downing of the Iranian plane and we warn students that that it's pretty pretty graphic descriptions of of what has happened, and so we show a clip. It's only about thirty seconds long and we pause for what seems like a long time, maybe fifteen seconds of just silence, and that I think, really is powerful, allowing our students to really relate to what Michael McCain might have been experiencing in terms of a colleague colleagues family losing their life. So it's a very powerful way to start the whole process yeah. It really allows the the community to think in that the people impact to sink in must be very powerful in the classroom. Well, in particular, Mat- and you know, people might not realize this- but for students from Western University lost their lives in the Internet, and we talk about it as well. Steve I like to add, because you know mat you were asking, so how did the students react? You know we just came out a very challenging you with coved, and so we taught a case in a virtual classroom and it is easy for us to see the facial expressions and you see that many students are, like you know, engaged entertained, maybe sometimes shocked by the way we go the intensity of the debate, which again is all kind of rehearse just just a little bit, but then the students jump in, and you know one of the things that we do is that its very start of the of the case, the conversation we have a couple of Poles just to assess the temperature in the classroom, how people line up of to share old perspective, write a business around table statement and, quite frankly and Steve. I don't think I'm exaggerating here, but you see large concentrations the exact opposites on a one to five scale, a class around one in two, a strongly a disagree, and then I classed around four and five agree or strongly agree. So I can easily imagine what happens in the classroom right that not only do the faculty, you know, engage in the vigorous of the behat, but also the students, and for as this is gold right, because we can just sit back, relax a little bit and listen to the students and intervene were necessary, and so I must admit this is one of the most exciting cases I taught in a long time, because, as Steve said, we found a way to draw the students into the conversation, as is incredibly rewarding right, and so so. For me, it wants to debate and a multiple times the deeper reflections that I think is taking part on the part of the student, so that for me, was, was very rewarding just to quick, follow up and this this obviously there are. There are downsides in terms of a zoom classroom, but the upside just to pick up on what Gerard was saying that this polling ability? What what's great about that is by forcing students to react to a particular statement. Let me give you an example: one of the statements we get the students to either strongly disagree or strongly agree or somewhere in between is to make the statement that the primary goal of every public company should be to maximize shareholder value. So so, then, on a scale of one to five, you can pick out the ones and the fives and and get them to share their views up front and so you're already creating this. This tension, that's coming from student to student, it's fantastic and before- and I know this is going to come out in the teaching note a little bit about how you draw these conversations out. But I do want to ask a question related to you know how students react, how the how the process has changed over time. You know, does the dynamic between the classes and the responses that you're getting from students has that changed since you initially launched the case, have you seen it go in different directions? Maybe that you didn't expect? No, I don't think so. I think the issues that are embedded in the case, at least from my point of view, the leadership point. If you are quite clear, where do we stand on shareholder maximization versus business around table? You know the conversation fight well, actually, we'd be interesting, because that conversation five years ago might be very different. A conversation today is a result of coved right and people really reflecting on and here's where Steve and I might might disagree with it. What is the role of the Co right organizations and in society and listen? It is quite clear: a some polls, a research, has shown that maybe organization, maybe citizens, are losing confidence losing trust in role of government. What Hole Society together and a many people say, there's a e, a profound role for fulful for businesses, and so we try to play that a little bit in the conversation Steve a. What I would say is that again, this is still early days in terms of teaching the case we expect this case is going to have a very long run, because we've already seen since we've written the case, a lot of a lot of discussions in the media about the role of Cos speaking out on social issues and we've seen it as it relates to black lives matter and and many many other issues. So we expect that that these issues will keep coming to to to the forefront, and so I think you might see the discussions evolving depending on what might be topical in terms of social issues. That cos are addressing yeah completely agree, and you know from the publishing side we're getting asked for cases that relate to this. That can that can touch upon this. What's the social impact of an organization on additional comment, because that's actually the beauty of these kinds of what we call cross enterprise leadership cases, because you know, I think sometimes, when we pick cases offer the course, we teach it directly from a finance perspective or his stragety perspective or leadership perspective. And I think you know the world, the business world is complex, and this is simply one of those examples. If you open your mouth as a C L as the leader there's implications right, which is no different than when we think about leading deep and comprehensive change in an organization you can say: Well, that's a leadership each, you sure Tis, but his strategy, peace as well. There is finance involved to there is operations involved. When you think about leading through a crisis, you can say: Well, you know a financial numbers, don't look good, okay time for a change right, okay, so here's where leadership gets into the picture or again, where you know strent my creeping and this case is no different. It would be foolish to think or almost foolish to sometimes teach cases just from a purely functional point of view, and- and I think that's one of the things I like best about these kinds of cases to to teach it in a team context, and we have several of those cases that we bring into the curriculum is great for faculty. I enjoy them very much. I learn a lot about different perspectives, but I've seen that it really works in the class room, any engagement, because you know it's a real work out for the students and they get you know Yang from left to right and because we surprised them in terms of the perspecto need to think about this. You need to think about that. So I think cases like these to his use, a great service Gerard, is that the most challenging part a of teaching cases like this, the moderation, the control of energy back and forth the the interplay between the different areas, whether it be finance versus communications, is that the most challenging part I would say it is it is a bit challenging, but you know here's the for me anyways. I, the key success factor, and this might sound a little harsh, but pick your colleagues wisely, because you really need to be a team member. You need to know when to be quiet and give the other person stage time. So it's not about you, it's about the team. It is also for the other person to not to be in X. for me, as a leadership person to become familiar with finance, but obviously I need to understand where Steve is coming from that I can challenge him. I need to be able to challenge my marketing colleagues and need to be able to challenge my operations colleague. So it is a bit of work. You Know Mat to to to do this well and that's what I mean by first and foremost, you know picture team wisely Steve, I'm not sure if you have any other thoughts about how to deliver this in a perfect fashion to to the class room. What are your thoughts yeah? I think what works best. It is to try to keep that energy level up and and the best way to keep energy level up. In any case context, I would say it is to create some kind of tension and that's we're going back to the polling, helps to create that that tension. What we also do within the discussion- and I think this is a real eye opener for four students- they've they've shared this as as well- is creating tension, not only student to student through the pools, but in many cases factly members to factly member and in particular Gerard and I- and you know admittedly, this is. This is a bit of a show, and we talked this through in advance. Let me give you an example. I will be talking about shareholder premaces and, as Gerard mentioned, going back to Milton Freeman's famous New York Times, one thousand nine hundred and seventy article. It says that that the social responsibility of business is to increase its profits, and so I play that role much as I can from a sort of a right wing perspective. All that matters is profits and, as I'm wrapping up this discussion- and we have this all orchestrated and then Gerard will jump in it say, wait a second George. You want to just make some comments in terms of what are the types of things you would say at that point yeah I would say this is t s. You know we, fifty years later, why are you still reading stuff from the ses I mean we have advanced to to a great extent, and you know we use some choice words. You know, I call Steve Old fashioned and that's why you see some of the the students like or they really wake wake up, but then it's you know to to build some of that detention and again you know this all in good spirit. We're not here to to to really insult people right, but you know we are and actually, if you read- and I don't have it with me- but if you actually read the article from thousand nine e by Milton Freeman, there are some statements in there that you know fifty years later. I personally, I think, are very questionable. You read that to the students- and you say really and- and you go back to Steve- is a Steve really right and that's what kind of d the debate starts, and I love doing that. Not I think, what's really fascinating and really an eye opener is that and this only can come through in a team teaching setting which is not the norm at any school, but a real eye opener for students is to see one faculty member challenging the views of another factly member and that that's a real iole putter and I think it gets them to think beyond a narrow perspective of Sherald er premise, for example, to consider other aspects as well, yead, so matt. I can imagine that for some people, a listening to the PODCAST, they go wow, that's pretty complex. Well, here's the irony- and I love this. The case is comprised of seven tweet. It's a page and a little bit. Okay, teaching note is thirty: Two Pages Tatyana's yeah. We need to pay to the people, say: that's crazy, a we know not at all, because what we've done in the teaching note is to provide a guide, our guy kind of a very detailed road map, with some of those decision, points or inflection points in the discussion to identify some tick questions right, that people might ask one another: The students et ca all right, and so it is a lot easier for people actually to commit to to use in the case, and so you know from a leadership point. As I said you know for me, it's really look at the role or explore the all of the C, all the duties, the responsibilities. You know the teaching out Toms a little bit about personal values, corporate values. Clearly there is an important role of the board and we want to talk about board and their responsibilities right, obviously, the business round table and that statement- and you know this is another- and actually here is and Steve Join me when when you can, but there is actually some research because we might say a lot about the business round table- and here, of course, is where Steve for a finance colleague it's heart at the at the leadership person, because these are nice words, but, as Steve can tell you, has there been any concrete action as a result of the business round table? Well when we taught that case last time, not so much and so are dies again. Weasel words. Is this wide washing? Whatever word you want to use? That's a great point of conversation and for me, then again, it is about kind of the judgment, the decision making and the character on the part of leadership things like accountability, courage et CETERA. So I think we do a really good job. A detailed note in the teaching of FO each of those five functions to help the potential attatude to to to help the teacher right think through some of the kind of the inflection points, the the decision point she or he would like to invent conversation. It's incredibly comprehensive. The teaching note Steve What you know. What kind of mindset did you get into? What are some of the things that you considered? You know when you're after teaching at the first time how you approach the teaching not to get it so comprehensive and it's incredibly thoughtful so so mad. I go back to advice that a senior colleague gave me when I was first starting out in terms of case writing and he said that a good case, the Adalgis he used. A good case is like a screwdriver sure you can use it to to do some screwing, but you can also use it to open up a paint can or to hammer something in, and so that's where we wanted to write this case so that it could be used in so many different different ways. Even with teaching this case, as we've done over three consecutive eighty minute classes, you still couldn't cover all of the points that we raise in the teaching notes. So it's really providing a lot of versatility and both myself and and colleagues another calling in finance. We were teaching this case simultaneously and we both took different tacks in terms of how we would approach just the finance part, and this plays itself out in the other areas to in strategy and leadership and communication and market and marketing as as well. So you can take this in so many different directions, and given that I want to revisit something that you just said three consecutive eighty minute classes out of out of a very short, a very short case like how flexible this piece is and how again the nuance that you can pull all kinds of different levers. Do you plan to continually update the teaching note as things go on as CEOS are asked to you know way in or should they weigh in on social issues? How are you going to handle this very comprehensive teaching note going forward? I think we're going to leave that to individual in structure instructors. We've provided this really solid framework and then again the teaching node is just a guide and as social issues evolve, then I think he there are all kinds of ways that we haven't even thought of that that one can take take the case. Man Gie you an example, Mat that you know it's always in flux right, because a two thousand and twenty is two thousand and twenty one is not going to be two thousand and twenty is always kind of updating. The narrative sitting down with the team the this work well, this does not work so well, like T, is a really interesting research. Article like to embattle in the cage conversation is always in flux, but I really, I think, the basic framework is there as Steve indicated, but how we give it coar. We leave that up to the individual instructor and you know I want a circle back to where we started this conversation. As is we look to wrap up our dialogue today. There are opportunities for case writing and situations like this coming up almost daily Gerard I'll start with you and then I'll go to Steve as you look at new case writing opportunities, new things that you can bring to the classroom. You know what Lens Are you looking at the world right now going? You know what are you looking for in cases as a writer? What are you looking for to try new methods to bring case like this is a very new type of case. You know how are you looking at the world to and looking at case writing moving for yeah, you know m t t that's a tough question I need to. I need to actually think a little bit about it. For me, it is always about good stories and relevant stories and stories. You know the analogy I always use is that you know I don't want to use beach balls in the class room that everybody thinks the same and you know we're done at after twenty minutes. So I do work with curve balls, for example, and so I don't know you know one of my one of the other cases that I recently wrote was around to Stratford Festival. You know here down and not far from Olinto as a result of black lives matter and with the leadership of Stratford Festival. Actually we did a deep excavation inward looking and indicate that you know. Yes, we have uphold kind of wide supremacy, not exactly how they said it, but had actually led to an enormous discussion at the stretch, word festival and a many stakeholders, and I picked up on that because it's one of those cases you can do a Wat with you know in the midst of cousin nineteen, and so that too, would be a case where you can of multiple faculty in the class, whom I have a robust discussion about the topic. That is, you know, on top of people's minds very much these days. That will be one, as you know, mad my older passion as the director of the the instituteur leadership ere at the Ivy School is I work on leader character and, if I reflect on on coved, people have said a lot about leadership and the role of leaders right in this particular crisis, and it is remarkable how frequently people talk about the character of leaders and that in many ways cowith reveals character, but also that character is necessary on the part of leaders to take us through this particular crisis. Whether this is you know, organizations in a palepite not for profit sectors, so I was looking for these kinds of cases that have a bit of controversy where we can really push people hard, give them and give them a good work out. You know, I think the case with the with Steve. I is a really unique case that we have great video material. It's a team of five. It is easy to come up with pause, because people feel about these things and in many ways those are the cases that that were best and so always interested in those that's a long, winded answer, but that's what I'm looking for these days. No, it's fantastic, and I love that you're looking to you know bring that kind of conflict into the classroom, because it is a safe environment for students to learn. You know how to have conflict to challenge ideas to you know with colleagues, you know how do we push back? How do we challenge different and how do we take in yeah and that here's another one right? I mean it's just being published in maiden case that we work with with racy Edwards and with bread around the world race and that's a great case on so many levels, but you know it talked a little bit about culture, the culture of sexism and Messagin, right that that she encountered in God's racing and given where we are today. That's one of those, not the new one of the case, but one of the topics that you can push really hard in the case conversation and what to do, how to create. You know healthy cultures in organizations and so again that case is a little bit data in the sense that ardite story is a bit dated, but the lessons and Benet in that case are so relevant in today's world, whether this is academic world or the business world or political world. Those are great cases that make people really think and reflect very relevant, and you know Steve, I'm going to give you the the final words here. You know. How are you looking at case? Writing what do you? What are you looking for o? What are you looking to push different ways of writing cases and evolving cases? Sure Matt, I would say two things for for case writers to pieces of advice. One is to look for disruptions and to is to think about how to be innovative, and I think I'll give you a couple of examples. One is one is clearly the MA believe foods case. Here we had a protagonist, Michael McCain, who is basically trying to disrupt something and he's trying to disrupt this. This whole dialogue in terms of reacting to the E, these tragic events and so he's taking the path of speaking of speaking out. Another example. Mat is the case that we wrote a couple of years ago on spotify spotify IPO, and there are a couple of levels here with spotify IPO spotify itself is a disruptor in terms of the whole music streaming industry and really creating a whole niche. Now that others have have followed. Not only was it a disruptor within the industry, but what makes for a great case idea is that it was disrupting the IP process as well going this different route rather than relying on underwriters. In terms of the pricing the IPO listing directly- and there was a lot of uncertainty in terms of how this was going to play out where then the stock was actually listed. Similarly, with the case writing process, and thanks to you, Matt and and and your team, we did something innovative with the writing of that. That case, we wanted to disrupt the traditional case writing process and to provide something that was as close to real time as possible, and so, as you know, what we did is we wrote a lot of the case before the the IPO not only a case, but the teaching note as well and thanks to you in your team, within a week of the actual I P, O we had available for for anyone to use as part of the IV, publishing case collection and beyond a full case and teaching notes. So these are things to. I would encourage case writers to look for ways to be innovative in in ways that we haven't even thought of. Well, that's, I think, that's a great you know, challenge to put out to the listeners is that you really challenge themselves to do things differently and Gerard Steve. I want to thank you for taking the time today to chat with this, but but moreover, as colleagues, because you're always challenging me and the team to think about doing things differently, bringing new ideas in and that's what keeps definitely our business, our industry moving forward, bringing new, exciting cases to the classroom, but also different ways of teaching the cases. So thank you very much for taking the time to chat with me today and I'm going to try to get weasel my way into the classroom to witness this inaction soon. So I look forward to to seeing this brought to life in the class. Thank you very much. My thank you thanks pet. If you enjoyed today's episode, subscribe to Decision Point on spotify or wherever you listen and be sure to check out the show notes for links to cases, resources and more have any feedback, send us an email at cases at IV dot ca